Season 1, Episode 10: Setting Healthy Boundaries
Boundaries play a crucial role in maintaining our well-being and creating healthy connections weather it’s with our partner, family, and work, or even with ourselves. Setting boundaries is more than just saying 'no' to things that don't serve us. It’s about saying 'yes' to our own needs.
On this episode of Living Fully, host Katherine Hurtig talks with registered psychologist, Curtis Bader, and registered social worker, Anna Hemens, about setting healthy boundaries and the impact they can have on our lives and relationships.
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Katherine Hurtig
Welcome to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Each episode we’ll bring you insights from our expert counselors and tips and strategies to improve your mental well-being. I'm your host, Katherine Hurtig.
Calgary Counseling Center and Counseling Alberta provide effective counselling for anyone in Alberta with no wait list and no financial barriers. Find us online calgarycounselling.com or counsellingalberta.com.
Whether it's in our relationships, at work, or even with ourselves, boundaries play a crucial role in maintaining our well-being and creating healthy connections. Boundaries are not just about saying “no” to things that don't serve us. It's about saying “yes” to our own needs.
In this episode, I talk with Curtis Bader, registered psychologist, and Anna Hemens, registered social worker, about setting healthy boundaries and the impact they can have on our lives and relationships.
OK, so today I'm talking to Curtis Bader, a registered psychologist with Calgary Counselling Centre, and Anna Hemens, registered social worker. Thanks so much for chatting with me today guys.
Anna Hemens
Pleasure!
Curtis Bader
Thanks for having us.
Katherine Hurtig
So we're going to be talking about boundaries in relationships and why they're important to set in all kinds of relationships that we have, like from romantic relationships to the people we work with, to our family and friends. It's definitely a topic that I am very interested in. Boundaries are something that I find challenging to communicate and really set, so yeah, I'm really interested to see where we get within this conversation. Yeah, thanks again for joining me.
Curtis and Anna, can you introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about your background?
Anna Hemens
Yeah, I’m a registered social worker. I did my masters of social work in Calgary and I've been a counsellor at Calgary Counseling Centre for a little bit over three years. I'm from England and I used to be a nurse and I've now been in Canada for six years.
Curtis Bader
My name is Curtis. I'm a registered psychologist. I've been at the Calgary Counselling Centre for my internship and residency and now as a full time staff. So all my experience in counseling has been done here at Calgary Counselling Centre so I've been very privileged to I kind of grow up here and learn a lot while I've been here. So yeah, it's been I think three or four years now since I've been doing counselling.
Katherine Hurtig
Awesome. Well, yeah, guys, let's get into it. How would you define a boundary?
Anna Hemens
For me a boundary is there to protect you, and so how I define a boundary is a way of protecting yourself, of letting somebody know what's OK and what's not OK. I can go into way more depth, but that's my most basic summary I think of a boundary.
Curtis Bader
Yeah, I think exactly that. I think they're just those limitations that we set that kind of govern what we agree to be acceptable or not acceptable. That kind of tell us what we're willing to do or not do, or what we’ll allow others to do or not do
Katherine Hurtig
That kind of sounds formal, you know, “what we deem to be acceptable.” So can you give us like some examples of what you see is like a boundary in a relationship?
Anna Hemens
That's one of those questions that my brain just goes, “ ugh, there's so many different options..” I’m trying to pick an example. It could be if your partner reacts in a certain way and you find that's hurtful. That's harmful to you, is being able to say that and being able to say that “this this was not OK, how you acted this. I felt really like hurt. I felt really scared, or I felt really dismissed by how you were acting and I just wanted to talk about that and let you know.
Curtis Bader
Yeah, I think that the definition can sound so formal, but we set boundaries all the time without even really realizing. Even just the agreement that we're going to ttay faithful to each other in the relationship - that's a boundary. That we don't become intimate with other people. Or just as things as small as like “when you come home, can you please lock the door as you entered the house.” That's a boundary that we might set too. So they're just these little agreements that they can be small in scale and they can get larger at scale.
Katherine Hurtig
Why is it important to have boundaries in relationships? What does that add to a relationship with another person?
Curtis Bader
Yeah, like Anna said, boundaries are really there to help protect you. But really they have some other functions as well. They can help kind of differentiate yourself from another person to kind of let others know that you have your own set of things that you've got going on, your own expectations about the world. Just as other people have theirs. So they clarify your needs, they clarify your expectations of yourself and others. Again, they're there for that protection to help prevent yourself being taken advantage of or being manipulated and that can help guide and manage your relationships.
Anna Hemens
I think one of the reasons why boundaries are so important in relationships is they give us a sense of security. If we know that we've communicated about where those limits are, then we feel more comfortable and secure and safe in a relationship. And I think it they really increase our feeling confidence in a relationship too that if we feel able to be able to communicate these things then we feel more powerful, we feel like more kind of confidence in the relationship.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I was going to say in control, but maybe like in a relationship dynamic, maybe that's not the right term, but just…
Curtis Bader
I think you may term it as a way of asserting yourself and just making sure you're taking care of your needs, which you're taking control of that for sure.
Katherine Hurtig
Are there boundaries that are healthy and maybe others that are not so healthy?
Anna Hemens
I had a really great metaphor about this boundary, so bear with me. It's relevant - so if you imagine a garden, and you imagine the garden is you, and you think about the flowers that are in your garden, you think about the grass that's in your garden. You think about how beautiful your garden is and around the garden is a fence. Right? and that fence helps to protect the garden. OK? it stops people coming into your garden. It's the right height that you can still see over the fence to the next garden. And you can talk to somebody and have a conversation because the fence isn't so high that you can't. It's just the right height and it's got a gate in the fence that only you have access to, and you have the key to allow people into your garden or close your garden, and that fence is like a healthy boundary where you can let people in and out and you can communicate over it. If you have no fence around your garden, people can just run into your garden and they can pick your flowers and they can plant their own flowers, right? They can even drive over your garden and your grass ends up being dry, the flowers aren't there. It's not taken care of, you feel exhausted. That's no boundary. That's an unhealthy boundary. The other way, is we have a really high fence. That's so high that we can't communicate over it. And it's really protective of our garden. But our garden is not getting the light that it needs and the nourishment that it needs either. So our garden isn't taken care of. That's not like giving specific examples, but that's what I think about is like having no boundaries at all, having these boundaries that are so strong that we can't communicate effectively with other people - a healthy boundary is somewhere in the middle.
Curtis Bader
Yeah, I love that visual. It’s such a good way to kind of portray how important boundaries are. Because imagine if your garden looked like that, trampled and dry and, like you said, feeling exhaused. It's difficult. I've was thinking a lot about this actually - the difference between healthy and unhealthy boundaries. I kind of got stuck in a loop, I was unsure of what really would define an unhealthy boundary because not all boundaries are seen as good from the recipient of the boundaries. So if I say to you “I'm not going to loan you $5000,” you might not think that's a very healthy boundary because you wanted that $5000. So I guess it depends on the perspective. But I think it ultimately comes down to, what's the outcome of the boundary. Are you getting what you're after by setting it? And maybe healthy ones I’d say, are typically specific, they're reasonable so people can kind of understand them, they're clearly communicated rather than being kind of left unknown of ambiguous, and like Anna said they can be flexible, but at the same time they need to be firm where they have to be.
Katherine Hurtig
I really like that explanation. That makes it a lot more clear. Can you say that again? They’re specific, reasonable, well communicated, …
Curtis Bader
Firm but flexible. And I think that the counter, the unhelpful ones would be too vague or they're too strict. They're too loose, or lackadaisical that they could be easily manipulated or changed or pushed and then also they can be ignored, maybe they lack awareness of what's reasonable, maybe the standards they’re setting is much too high for the other person and they remain inflexible even when the context needs them to change. So kind of just the opposite of what the healthy ones would be.
Katherine Hurtig
Let's give some examples or situations where we're setting boundaries would be a good idea, like maybe in a couple different types of relationships.
Curtis Bader
Yeah, you can talk about really strict boundaries you need to have, like not condoning any violence and not participating in that. So maybe having a boundary that you won't tolerate being spoken to or treated abusively. That's a pretty common one that I've had to discuss with clients … using violence in relationships. Kind of on a softer side, if you're talking about just a typical relationship that doesn’t involve violence, I always go back to the one of fidelity and saying, “well, we’re both agreeing that we're going to be faithful to one another,” and maybe, just like Anna said where “this is kind of how I'd like to be treated by you. Maybe when I ask you to do something rather than you give me a gruff response, I'd really appreciate it if you took my point of view on it before just replying so you can see why I'm asking you to do that.”
Anna Hemens
I talk about boundaries all the time. This is one of the biggest topics that I talk about. And I think boundaries often come up with friends. So let's say you're exhausted, right? It's Friday. It's been a really hard week and your friends are like, “oh, I've got this amazing ticket. Let's go out and go and see whatever.”
But you know you're exhausted and you're tired, right? And you need to take care of you. And so it's being able to communicate that and being able to say, “look, that concert looks amazing,” or, “those tickets are amazing. I'd love to spend some time with you, but tonight, I'm just wiped. So in fact, I'm gonna say no, not tonight. And let’s schedule to meet up next week.” That kind of thing, being able to actually prioritize how we feel and recognize what we need and communicate that.
Katherine Hurtig
Making sure your needs are met.
Anna Hemens
Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah Anna, and if you get pushback from these friends, like, “No, you really should come out with us, you never do,” how do you approach those situations where you get push back on your boundaries?
Anna Hemens
For me, it's about remembering that a boundary is protecting ourselves, and this is actually about like being respected. And so if in the example that I gave, if they're like, “no, you've gotta come out, you you never come out,” then the response could be: “I'm sorry. I'm really tired. I'm not coming out tonight, but again, let's set up a date to meet and chat.” So it's reinforcing the boundary and it's remembering that doesn't mean that you question your boundary and what's right for you. It's reinforcing that.
Curtis Bader
Yeah, this is such a good question because I think it's hard enough to set the boundary, identify what's needed, and tell someone that, but when they start to push, it becomes even harder because you start to want to cave to others need because we feel for them. And so it's often that people ask these of us is often that they kind of persist and say, “ah, but please,” or “I really need this from you.” So we can kind of feel guilted into compromising our boundary. But like Anna said, it's so important that you're using this as a way to protect what you need here. And so I find that staying really short and concise and still respectful can kind of be a great way to assert a boundary. One way I’ve been learned about this is what they call the broken record technique, where you just kind of say the same thing over and over, like a broken record. So you might say, “no, sorry, I can't come out this weekend,” and they might say, “well, please, please,” and you could say, “I'm really sorry, but I can't come out this weekend.” “Come on. You never come out.” You say, “I'm really sorry. I'd love to come, but I can't come out this weekend.” And eventually they’ll get the point that oh, wow, this person is not budging.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah.
Anna Hemens
I love that, Curtis - the broken record. I’ve got to remember, the broken record. Saying the same thing over and over. Yeah.
Katherine Hurtig
That's something that I totally struggle with. Communicating that well, and not over emotionally. Like, “I don't like this. I don't want to be talked to like this,” and dealing with the even potential of pushback, I hate it.
Curtis Bader
Yeah, that's the tricky part because all boundaries are saying yes to one thing and no to another so you know there's going to be some conflicts involved when no means no to somebody who wants something from you. So that’s a really important part of boundary setting is dealing with the conflict. And it's not comfortable, nobody likes to be dealing with conflict, but it's kind of a necessary part, and so you're not alone. I think every person, Katherine, struggles this. It's the hardest part about the boundaries.
Katherine Hurtig
For sure. If you're introducing a new boundary, whatever that may be, how do you suggest communicating that? Are there little scripts that you give your clients to kind of practice this stuff? How do you do that?
Curtis Bader
I like to talk to clients about assertive communication. Assertive communication is clear, respectful, open and collaborative. It's not manipulative. It's not passive and kind of deferring to the other person. It really gets across what you want to convey clearly. So you can kind of use things like “I” statements. Starting sentence with: “I think this,” “I feel this,” “I'm experiencing this” Follow that up with a request: “I would like to see this instead.” And then a check-in: “can you do that for me?” Because some of the requests we’re making of other people, maybe they're not actually able to do that. So we want to collaborate and find out what are they capable of and what can we be satisfied with, or how can we come up with a different alternative.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Curtis Bader
And then at the end of all that, if they're still saying no to something that they are capable of doing but don't want to, you can start to outline what you're going to do in response. So telling them about the consequences: “Well, if you don't do this thing I've asked. This is what I'm prepared to do instead.”
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I really like that point – setting out the consequences. There's someone I follow on TikTok that talks a lot about that, and just kind of like giving scenarios of different boundaries. “Here's what I don't like. Here's what it does, and if you continue to do that, this will be the consequence.” I mean, it might not always be communicated exactly in that way, like, “this is the consequence,” but you're relaying … that's showing the firmness, like being firm in your boundaries. “like I'm not OK with this, and this is what's going to happen if it keeps happening.”
Anna Hemens
Absolutely, and I think for me, one of the most important parts is the beginning to that, as Curtis said, those “I” statements, because I think what that does is that reduces defensiveness in the other person. If we start talking about ourselves first, we don't start pointing out what they did. We start off talking about ourselves because that opens up the other person to kind of hearing from us, because they don't know how we feel. As we think they do, most people, they don't know how we feel. And so starting off from that point,” I feel upset,” “I feel hurt,” “I feel scared,” “I feel angry,” “I feel whatever when this happens,” right? “And this is what I'm needing. This is this is what I'm asking you for,” and then following up, as Curtis said, after that, if they're unable to meet that need.
Curtis Bader
Of course, using that assertive communication to keep your message concise and clear, so that person really understands what you're trying to get at instead of beating around the bush and drawing it out. I think you can use some really practical things as well, so you want to use a calm voice, calm voice, also respectful language, so the person can, like Anna said, you're trying to prevent any defenses from coming up so they can relate to you and understand you. I usually use softer language like, “I'm sorry but…” or, “It's really nice of you to say that, but…” just to kind of acknowledge and empathize with the other person as well. Maybe saying something like, “I realize this is frustrating, but...” So you’re kind of showing them that you’re on their side. It's not me versus you, it's just me describing something for you to understand.
Anna Hemens
I read somewhere, it may have been TikTok, I'm not sure, about the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum, because sometimes those things can… “I don't want to give that person an ultimatum.” I think one of the big differences is the tone of voice that you give. It's starting off with, “I feel,” absolutely that that reducing … but also the tone of voice. If you're calm and gentle and you're nice, slow kind of pace of voice versus, “you better… this is what it is.” Then how differently that feels even if the words are the same, the tone of your voice can really be so valuable.
Curtis Bader
Anna, I'm so glad you brought up the point about the ultimatums. I think some people mistake boundaries for being ultimatums – “I'm going to set the terms and you're going to either do this thing I want or this thing I want,” and I think another way to make this more effective and less confrontational is to be as collaborative as you can. Think about some alternatives and some options and where you can be flexible on your boundaries. Not to say you should compromise them. But consider that you have your expectations, the other person has a different set, and how can you merge them together rather than just only being your way. Some cases it will have to be that firm. Talking about things like abuse, you can't compromise on how much abuse I’m willing to accept so…
Katherine Hurtig
No, for sure.
Curtis Bader
But I think that's another way to make it less confrontational, when you show the other person you're willing to work around their needs too.
Katherine Hurtig
Not touching on like, abuse per se, but what would be some signs that a partner might be violating or not respecting the boundary that you've set with them?
Curtis Bader
I thought about this and something that came to my mind where you can pay attention to your emotions, emotions are those signals that kind of tell us that something feels off. So you might be feeling unheard, unsupported, ignored, disrespected, things like that, that kind of make you think, “oh, this isn’t going well for me.” You can also maybe feel like it's always seems to be your partner's way, it's never your way. You feel like you're always compromising for them it. It feels like you're being frequently challenged, or maybe somethings trying to cross or poke at your boundaries quite often. maybe you're having repeated conversations, repeated arguments about what your boundaries are, how you want to be respected. This might be telling you that other people aren't really respecting or listening to your boundaries.
Anna Hemens
I've been thinking about this too, and I think something that comes up when our boundaries are kind of crossed – it’s like an irritation, right, or an anger. Sometimes people think that if you feel irritated or angry it's really bad and sometimes actually protective. It's actually saying, “oh, you know, I’m annoyed. I'm hurt.” And when you think about it, it’s actually because, “oh, I already talked about this and they've done it again.” And sometimes that can be a warning that our boundaries have kind of been crossed. That and that kind of icky - it doesn't sound like very textbook - but that kind of icky feeling… I think it’s really important.
Katherine Hurtig
If someone hasn't… if you're working with a client who needs to practice setting boundaries, how would you recommend safely doing that in small ways to build up confidence around doing that?
Anna Hemens
How I start off with clients is we practice in session. I'm like, “OK, imagine that I'm so-and-so,” and we basically practice what it would be like to set the boundary, how that feels within yourself, and then when we’ve done that then this is something that I suggest the client does as homework, is setting a boundary, and we pick about what that boundary is going to be, and we start off small. So I can't give a specific example, but we start off with something that's small to try. So for example a client going away for the weekend and said to somebody, “oh, yeah, you can come with me,” but then actually being able to say, “no, I need to be on my own,” and communicating that boundary.
Curtis Bader
Yeah, that’s a good one Anna. I think practicing in a safe environment with someone that you trust, your counsellor, a friend or family member, can be the best way to kind of get that rehearsal and get that confidence built. Practicing different ways of phrasing it, so you kind of feel like you can ad-lib in the moment as you need, depending on where the situation takes you. But ultimately, I think keeping a clear and concise message. When you know the three things or the two things you want to come across, it's much easier to stick to them, rather than getting drawn along the different lines with the other people they might be trying to pick at. So when you can kind of come back to a central message that can bring some confidence.
Katherine Hurtig
How can we set boundaries in a work or professional setting without jeopardizing our career? Like, let me throw out an example - you've got a coworker that's always kind of dumping their work on to you. How do you kind of set a boundary there?
Curtis Bader
Yeah, it's definitely a tricky environment because we know that jobs and work do entail doing things that we don't necessarily want to do, but for the sake of keeping our job, keeping our income, you might be more willing to do them than if we weren’t being paid to do it.
Katherine Hurtig
Right.
Curtis Bader
So it's important to know what your boundaries are. That kind of comes from just identifying what you're prepared to do, what you're not prepared to do, and again, assessing how much flexibility that you can allow for these boundaries for one. And I think knowing what the expectations are in the workplace can help you inform your boundaries. If you know that this is a position where you’re probably going to be walked all over often, maybe that's not a position that you want us to keep or stay in. But again, using assertive communication, being very respectful, very professional, but also being firm in your message. So maybe saying to the person, “hey, it seems like this falls more under your responsibility. I'll let you take care this.” And then if you're not finding the person being very responsive, you can escalate the boundary too. You can say – and we’ve talked about consequences earlier – “if this doesn't get done, I'll probably be having to speak with my supervisor,” and getting some more people on your side and more people involved in the situation if a person's not changing their behavior.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah
Anna Hemens
I think that until we set a boundary, people don't know our limits, right? So that person that kept giving you more and more work because they didn't know that actually, you'd reached your limit because you hadn't communicated it. And I think this is one of the benefits is itmakes us feel more confident. Being able to say, “I've reached that point. I'm not able to take this on right now.” So knowing what your limit is, and then being able to communicate that exactly as Curtis says. And sometimes that's the hardest thing - it's recognizing what is our limit. There’s our work responsibility, but then there's also our own personal limit of how much we can take.
Curtis Bader
That's really well said Anna.
Katherine Hurtig
Boundaries are going to come up in all kinds of relationships, and it's probably something that we should learn early on when we're when we're kids. So how do you suggest parents teach and model healthy boundaries to their children and how to set them?
Curtis Bader
Yeah, you nailed it, Katherine. That it's so important that we learn these things as we grow up. I think the reason that maybe Anna and I work with a lot of clients who struggle with this is because they haven't really been shown and taught how do you set effective boundaries. So it's important that parents model healthy barriers for their children and the way they interact with people in their life. So it could be with their children, with their partner or spouse, with family, with friends, with coworkers, with strangers, with service people, so that kids really get an understanding that this is how you can be assertive in all these different areas of my life, which is going to be necessary for them as they grow older.
Katherine Hurtig
Yeah, I guess that's like the easiest way to teach a child is just to show them through you, show them through your own actions and how you deal with other people.
Curtis Bader
Yeah, the amount of influence parents have over children is significant, and so if you're doing these things that you want your kids to be doing they’re going to pick that up. And being consistent in too, not just doing it when you feel like you're in a good mood, but doing it at all times so children get that impression that this is important to do at all times, to set strong and healthy boundaries. Other than that I think also talking with your children about coundareis, not just showing but talking with them to kind of tell them it's OK, it’s important to set boundaries. And beyond just talking about it, kind of working through it with them. Asking them questions to engage them in the process. I think kind of asking how questions to kind of get their minds going. “How could you have done that differently?” How could you have said that to get that other effect?” “How could you tell that wasn't OK?” to kind of get them thinking for themselves.
Katherine Hurtig
I can think of an example with my step son. We were hanging out with my brother's kids who are a bit younger and they're very affectionate and I could tell my stepson wasn't super into it. But I think he felt like he wanted to be polite, so he didn't say anything, so you know, I pulled him aside at one point and I said, “you can tell them, I don't want to be hugged right now,” and things like that.
Anna Hemens
And I think, as you've both talked about kind of role modelling and helping the child to recognize that first part about how they feel and how it's impacting them. Because I think that's the piece that children maybe don't know and that we're not taught is, OK so somebody did this, how did that make you feel? What happened? What sensations… teach them about why the boundary exists and kind of that first step and I think it's really important. And then just yeah, modelling that kind of healthy communication because that's what boundaries are: healthy, assertive communication using those “I” statements.
Curtis Bader
That's a great point. Kind of helping your children identify when the boundary’s been crossed as well for them so they can know their own limits because that how they’re trying to explore and interact with the world.
Katherine Hurtig
Any last thoughts? Anything we've missed on healthy boundaries, guys?
Curtis Bader
Boundaries are important. They're necessary. We live in a social world where people are going to be asking things from you, so it's important to know what you're prepared to do and what you're prepared not to do that will give you the confidence in setting the boundaries. And it's also that boundaries are flexible. You get to determine how rigid or how firm you want the boundaries to be, or how flexible you want them to be. And they're going to depend on the context. I think people get into some trouble when they set one boundary, expect that's where it's always going to go forever. So really consider how flexible it needs to be. And what informs that is what outcome you want from this? For example, maybe you don't really want to be lending out that much money, but maybe you come across a cause that seems really worth it. … how do I want to enact my values here? Are my values going to trump my boundaries in this case but not in the other case. They're important and they can be flexible.
Katherine Hurtig
You've been listening to Living Fully, a Calgary Counselling Centre podcast. Thank you for tuning in.
This episode was produced by Luiza Campos, and by me, Katherine Hurtig. A special thanks to Curtis Bader and Anna Hemens.
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Living Fully is a production of Calgary Counselling Centre and recorded in Calgary on Treaty 7 territory.
Living Fully podcast is not a substitute or alternative for professional care or treatment. If you're in Alberta and need help, please go to calgarycounselling.com. or counsellingalberta.com. For help across Canada and the United States, call 211. If you are outside of Canada and the US, seek help from your general medical practitioner.